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Falcon Crossflow Turbo Conversion

4.1L Crossflow Falcon Crossflow Turbo Turbo Converison Crossflow

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#1 HarryyyyK

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 04:57 PM

Hi all,

 

Been around these forums a fair amount, and have gotten heaps of good advice and guidance, and wanting more now.

 

So I want to go a turbo conversion on the Falcon XC Crossflow.

 

I need some guidance in the setup especially from people who have taken the turbo root before. 

 

So at the moment, the engine is fresh, probably done about 20,000kms since last rebuild, and pretty cruising kms. 
 

Its an iron head motor, however the bottom end is all re-done, balanced and blueprinted. Its got a slightly bigger cam then stock, crows cam, IN 204 EX 214.

 

As well as an MSD ignition, Holley 350 and extractors. Great motor love it.

 

 

So I've got a ECU lined up for the conversion, I also managed to score a fully reconditioned alloy C2 head, with proper stem seals and all, its really clean. As well as all the manifold and throttle intake from an XF falcon.

 

So first up, the cars compression is around stock for a Falcon XC, around 9. I know the C2 heads are about 42CC in the chamber, I have a feeling it will bump the compression too high for some nice boost into the motor. Could someone give me advice on that??
 

 

Second, from the design on it, the banana and log manifold of the XF looks great for low down torque, however I'm wanting to move the power band more to the higher side of the middle. Not all down low like a tow car. 

Would I be good to stay with the log manifold and banana runners, or fab up my own nice manifold and with some shorter runners, and then out the front of the engine???

 

Third, the current cam I got

 

ADV Duration:

266 279

 

.05Duration

204 215

 

Lift

.469" .481"

 

LSA

112

 

Will that work nicely with a turbo? Or should I go for a turbo camshaft?

 

Finally, stock bottom end crossflows, how much boost do they take and are safe with? The wear on the bottom end is minimal, but there is only so much cast parts will take I could imagine. 

 

Thanks all, look forward to the advice, and let the new build begin.



#2 crazy2287

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 06:17 PM

Moved the topic for you.

With modern tuning techniques, fuels, suitable cam and good cylinder head, you can get away with a fair bit of comp and still run med to low boost safely. Car can keep a lot of drive ability that way.

Stock bottom end should be okay if you don't push it too hard. RPM will be the killer. Keeping it under 5krpm and it should last if the tune is on point. the force caused by boost is much smaller then that caused by high RPM. 
 

Stock x-flow manifold would be fine, you can pick up a little up top if you use a different manifold but boosting it will sort that out for the most part. Depends how much effort you want to put into it.

Cams got a wide lobe sep so it's probably gonna be fine boosting it. Obv have a cam designed for your specific application would be better, but it depends on how much you want to spend. I don't know enough about Cams to offer any advice there, except that low overlap is good for turbo engines and a wider LSA should give lower overlap.


"Your X has a red book value of 50 cents - but you still love her and can't bear the thought of the 1000+ hours of restoration... being taken by some thoughtless knob who carelessly shits on your world... The value is to the owner." - XFEvil

#3 HarryyyyK

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 10:58 PM

Moved the topic for you.

With modern tuning techniques, fuels, suitable cam and good cylinder head, you can get away with a fair bit of comp and still run med to low boost safely. Car can keep a lot of drive ability that way.

Stock bottom end should be okay if you don't push it too hard. RPM will be the killer. Keeping it under 5krpm and it should last if the tune is on point. the force caused by boost is much smaller then that caused by high RPM. 
 

Stock x-flow manifold would be fine, you can pick up a little up top if you use a different manifold but boosting it will sort that out for the most part. Depends how much effort you want to put into it.

Cams got a wide lobe sep so it's probably gonna be fine boosting it. Obv have a cam designed for your specific application would be better, but it depends on how much you want to spend. I don't know enough about Cams to offer any advice there, except that low overlap is good for turbo engines and a wider LSA should give lower overlap.

 

Thanks crazy, much appreciated. 

Is RPM that bad? The car gets spun to 6000rpm occasionally, with the limiter usually set to 5500rpm. 
 

With the blueprinting, and the internal and external balancing, plus lighten flywheel, it honestly feels like its has no effort spinning up that high, I'll admit at one point the stock rockers where still on, and they would TAP alottt. But once I got rollers, the motor sang all the way up to 6000rpm.

 

I will most likely stick with the stock xflow, either that, or make my own log style intake, put a LS throttle body at the front and make new runners, shorter and just come out of the side. 

However, considering what this motor is, which is huge and great at torque, I don't think I will see a massive benefit in doing this, even spinning to 6000rpm, its not leaps in power from 5000rpm, so I can only imagine shorter runners having the benefit of a more snappier throttle, due to the shorter intakes. 

Okay, glad the cam is good to go with the boost, and yeah I think I'll put the head on and see what the comps at.

 

Taking into factor that the motor has a great big displacement, there is a lot of air pushing out of those 6 cylinders, If I get the manifold made up so that all pulses hit together at the turbo intake. I want to match the turbo up so the huge amount of pulse from the exhaust, spins it up really early, in order to get that boost where the engine loves the power, which is mid range. 

 

So basically a mid size turbo, which will get spun up earlier on in the power band, and flatten out higher up. The aim is the raise the center of the torque, in order to flatten it out, and hopefully getter a better range under the curve for horsepower. 

Is there anything else I should be aware of boosting the motor, how about injector size?? I was going to go like a BF size injector, and simply limit it via adjustable fuel pressure valve?



#4 crazy2287

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 06:13 PM

I would need a LOT more information about your build to give good recommendations. Have you got a build thread?
 

Thanks crazy, much appreciated. 

Is RPM that bad? The car gets spun to 6000rpm occasionally, with the limiter usually set to 5500rpm.

 

Yes. a standard crossflow has a very high G' moment of inertia as the piston changes direction. Poor balance, weak connection components and  the type of fasteners don't help. The motor is plenty strong to spin at it's factory redline. But once you start exceeding 5krpm these forces fall outside the envelop it was designed for. Making 300HP at 7000RPM NA is going to be much more destructive to the engine than making 300HP at 4500rpm with 15lb boost.
 

Taking into factor that the motor has a great big displacement, there is a lot of air pushing out of those 6 cylinders, If I get the manifold made up so that all pulses hit together at the turbo intake. I want to match the turbo up so the huge amount of pulse from the exhaust, spins it up really early, in order to get that boost where the engine loves the power, which is mid range.

 

From the best of my knowledge having matched headers on a turbo application, in order to have perfect exhaust gas pulse phasing, is far more trouble than its worth. The power/gain from doing so is not worth the effort/cost/drams associated with turned length headers. Up to you, But a home built, well designed log manifold made using steam pipe bends will be strong, less prone to fatigue failure and perform just fine. 
 

So basically a mid size turbo, which will get spun up earlier on in the power band, and flatten out higher up. The aim is the raise the center of the torque, in order to flatten it out, and hopefully getter a better range under the curve for horsepower. 

Is there anything else I should be aware of boosting the motor, how about injector size?? I was going to go like a BF size injector, and simply limit it via adjustable fuel pressure valve?

 

A turbo similar size to a factory falcon turbo (GT35?) would likely be perfect, maby with a slightly smaller exhaust housing if you have the choice. But ideally before choosing your turbo you need to know your airflow and peak HP target. i am NOT a good advisory for turbo choice, you should talk to someone who knows turbos. Before you do, you need to know what your aim is.

 

Injectors. I can recommend the Bosch EV6 42lb injectors, Will bolt into factory fuel rail and injector manifold, even use the same electrical connector. TI performance sells them at a good price https://www.tiperformance.com.au/ it's where is got mine and i can confirm that they are genuine. But their flow capacity may not be big enough, depending on your HP Target.


"Your X has a red book value of 50 cents - but you still love her and can't bear the thought of the 1000+ hours of restoration... being taken by some thoughtless knob who carelessly shits on your world... The value is to the owner." - XFEvil

#5 HarryyyyK

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 11:41 PM

I would need a LOT more information about your build to give good recommendations. Have you got a build thread?
 

 

Yes. a standard crossflow has a very high G' moment of inertia as the piston changes direction. Poor balance, weak connection components and  the type of fasteners don't help. The motor is plenty strong to spin at it's factory redline. But once you start exceeding 5krpm these forces fall outside the envelop it was designed for. Making 300HP at 7000RPM NA is going to be much more destructive to the engine than making 300HP at 4500rpm with 15lb boost.
 

 

From the best of my knowledge having matched headers on a turbo application, in order to have perfect exhaust gas pulse phasing, is far more trouble than its worth. The power/gain from doing so is not worth the effort/cost/drams associated with turned length headers. Up to you, But a home built, well designed log manifold made using steam pipe bends will be strong, less prone to fatigue failure and perform just fine. 
 

 

A turbo similar size to a factory falcon turbo (GT35?) would likely be perfect, maby with a slightly smaller exhaust housing if you have the choice. But ideally before choosing your turbo you need to know your airflow and peak HP target. i am NOT a good advisory for turbo choice, you should talk to someone who knows turbos. Before you do, you need to know what your aim is.

 

Injectors. I can recommend the Bosch EV6 42lb injectors, Will bolt into factory fuel rail and injector manifold, even use the same electrical connector. TI performance sells them at a good price https://www.tiperformance.com.au/ it's where is got mine and i can confirm that they are genuine. But their flow capacity may not be big enough, depending on your HP Target.

 

I haven't put or finished my build thread yet, its in the pipeline. But I will give you the run down. 

Enter engine has been re-built to factory specifications. 

 

Whats New:

- Pistons

- Seals

- Bearings

- Camshaft

- Anti-Pump Lifters

- Roller Rockers

- Single with Damper Valve Springs

- New Valves

- Moly Chro Pushrods

- Gaskets and Other

 

Whats Original:

- Crankshaft

- Rods

- Bottom Block

 

The crankshaft and rods where shot peened and checked. 

 

Enter motor was acid cleaned, honed and blueprinted. All professionally re-built. 

 

Motor was balanced internally, all from:

- Pistons Balanced

- Rods Balanced

- Crank Balanced

- Bolts and End Weights Balanced

 

Motor Was also balanced externally:

- Harmonic Balancer

- Lightened and Balanced Flywheel

- Accessory Pulleys

 

The new head is a C2 head which has had head work done to it, with a valve grind done as well. It also has these weird lock type seals on the top over the valve guides (Might upload a pick)

 

Valve Train:
The camshaft is Crow Cam with  the following specs:

 

ADV Duration:

266 279

 

.05Duration

204 215

 

Lift

.469" .481"

 

LSA

112

 

Head: 

 

Is matched witth anti-pump lifters, moly pushrods (Nice and strong), 1.73 Adjustable Roller Rockers, and Single Spring with Damper, as well as new colletts and retainers.

 

Intake Manifold:

 

The manifold will the original XF log manifold, with some port work done to it, I will be putting a larger intake throttle body on it, most likely from an LS with built in idle motor. 

 

Got to run the relevant vacuum lines and what not

 

Fuel System:

After Market Fuel Tank from the States, was mean't for a mustang, however made custom mounting plates, holds 85L, fully baffled with drop in fuel pump.

 

Custom 3/18 Full metal Fuel Line, with return line and filters.

 

Injectors will be Bosh EV14, 725CC at 70LB, will allow for alot of Head Room in HP

 

Then there will be the fuel regulator.

 

Ignition:

Current system is TFI Hall-Effect Dizzy matched with a MSD 6AL Programmable, with a huge MSD coil pack, makes a spark the size of a lighting ball.

 

Exhaust:

The exhaust will be custom made, my welding isn't that good yet, and will be getting it to the best we can, still not sure if we want the turbo hanging or sitting on top. 

 

Cooling:

Remote Oil Cooler for the Engine

 

Upgraded Three Row Radiator for Coolant

 

 

Transmission:

Slightly Beefed up Borg Warner 3spd Auto, with higher stall. It will be gone eventually, want to put a 5spd manual in it. 

 

Diff:

Frankenstein Diff, with a 9inch center, in a borg warner housing from the states. Has massive splines, and 9 inch flanges to suit. 

 

Gearing is 3.45 LSD

 

Brakes:

Brembo Disc Brakes. 4 Pots with 320mm Discs

 

Turbo:

Probably something similar to the GT35, like the falcon turbo. I want something that will spool up early and won't run out of, and holds boost till 5000rpm.



#6 crazy2287

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 07:19 PM

The Borgy and maby even the 5 speed will probably fall to bits once shes boosted if you miss-treat em at all. From the sounds of it you should be good over 5krpm. Rev limiting will give better longevity though. What ECU? why not have the ECU control the ignition timing?

Stock throttle body will be plenty big enough if that's the only reason you're changing it.

Sounds like you're pretty much sorted, just figure out your comp then pick a boost target and bolt on a turbo!


"Your X has a red book value of 50 cents - but you still love her and can't bear the thought of the 1000+ hours of restoration... being taken by some thoughtless knob who carelessly shits on your world... The value is to the owner." - XFEvil




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