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#1 demmo

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 11:06 PM

i have a 4 ltr which is playing silly buggars on start up.  when you try to start it after its been standing for an hour or more it just turns over   if i turn key on off letting the fuel pump prime 6 to 8 times then  it usually starts .  similar to starting an old diesel motor            i first thought it was the pump  so its been replaced twice  fuel filter changed twice also.  have taken both lines  off the fuel rail and they are   dry  only appear to have fuel after priming an or running motor ...  should the rail hold fuel under pressure when motor switched off  allowing fuel to be available straight away on start up    if this is the case an not holding  pressure could someone tell me what type of valve,  where i might find it ect    or do you think its inside the rail and that i need to replace this along with the injectors  any help  or advice would be great  or am i on the wrong trail  ifso where should i be looking  thanks   demmo



#2 Outback Jack

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 06:35 AM

Heya Demmo, I going down the same path as you on my 4.0L . I have also replaced the pumps and inline filter. I am down to the fuel regulator or injectors.....there are no visable leaks anywhere, tightened EVERYTHING.

Mine starts OK, but get 30m down the road, she coughs and splutters, then comes good, but let her sit more than an hour or so..... off we go again. And to be honest fuel consumption is way up and performance is pretty average, especially at WOT or accelerating.

 

Yeah the fuel pressure is supposed to be held in the rail and pumps should prime for 1-2 seconds max before start up just to top it up ready for fire up.

 

The Fuel regulator is on the start of the fuel rail (back of motor, on passenger side, has a vacuum hose on top, one hose on it for fuel in and a fuel return line.

Have been told when they are stuffed, they make the car run too rich, and pumps try and keep pressure up, think its the diaphram that goes in em.

Only other thing is a bung injector/s leaking fuel pressure into a cylinder.

 

I'd check all ya lines first, then it has to be regulator or injectors.... only other 2 things in the line before the boom boom .

 

Think from memory the test with a pressure guage was 10% drop in pressure is acceptable, more than that, you losing too much pressure.

 

Best of luck. Jack.


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You Can't park that Holden in MY Driveway.......................This is Ford Country.

 

 

I had my Ute raised when everybody was lowering theirs so I could drive over shit.

A Country Ute need to actually be able to get over a speed hump... or it's no good for the farm.

 

 


#3 n00bus m@x1mus

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:30 AM

Almost right Jack, the reg is the last thing on the rail. Fuel comes in and is regged back out at the correct pressure back to the tank, this ensures the injectors have the correct fuel pressure to fire when triggered. If your rail is dry after sitting over night i would look into your reg malfunctioning, plus you might have an injector seal leak aswell. The reg is an easy swap out so go for it, even fitting one from an XH will work too (complete rail aswell)so you end up with a better designed and functioning reg.

While your reg will bleed out pressure after wards, it will only relieve it a tiny bit, back pressure against the pump will relieve the rest but there should still be a solid volume of fuel left over, just at 0psi. If the rail is dry it means air is getting back in there to allow it to siphon out... (injector seal maybe but it would be very noticeable while running)

I would check your pickup point and filter for blockages aswell, you should be able to disconnect the supply line (the one directly into the rail) and aim it into a empty coke bottle or something and it should fill it pretty quickly, like around 10-15 secs for a 1.25L. If yours flows slowly then it could be a blockage or even low voltage to the pump. Check it with a multimeter while running, should be minimum 12v there, 13.8v optimally.

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#4 demmo

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 01:06 PM

ok another update to this post.  we have changed filters pumps also put a new 2way valve on tanks, replaced relays for the switching gear. grrrr  lol no change so next step box of matchers.  ok so retrace steps starting from tanks again read labels on solenoid left tank right tank hoses connected to the marked points. ok at this point we decide to change the tank lines around so its opposite to the markings an paperwork. this means that once solonide looses power the open position is to the axillary tank power system up  main tank is on line.  ok we now have easy starting even after 4 days  standing   ok now  have filled both tanks , done nearly 600 ks starting an stopping main tank only still reads 7/8 full, switch to axillary tank before starting an gauge reads 1/4   my conclusion is that     when power is off the solonide closes outline and return line maintaining pressure forward to motor.  when running  main tank open drawing fuel an somehow syphoning fuel from second tank into main  not sure as to how this is being done so come on guys put your ideas up, even though the car is running as it should  I will feel comfortable when I know what gremlin is causing this fuel transfer  so all help appreciated

cheers  demmo



#5 Outback Jack

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 08:33 AM

lol, you didnt say it was an outback twin tank set up.... now I got ya answer... Demmo, heres some info that will stop ya ute from driving ya crazy...

 

On Outback models with twin tanks, the one behind the drivers seat is actually the Main tank (58L), the one behind passenger seat is Aux tank (68L).

On normal utes the main tank is behind the passenger seat. This is actually the 'main' 68L tank, but for some unknown reason is hooked up as the "aux" tank on Outbacks. Weird.

 

This had me stuffed for ages mate. Couldn't figure out why the wrong tank pump was priming up. Also for some unknown reason the guys at Ford decided to not use the the two way valve for fuel being supplied to the fuel rail, instead they used a brass T piece and just linked them together near the tanks, the fuel pump itself has a flap that stops fuel going backwards. I was thinking of installing two inline one way valves to stop any 'bleed' from the pumps and take the pressure off them.

 

I have 2 Outbacks it is the same on both.

 

I also am wondering about the return lines, as they run through the valve, but do they return to the right tanks if the above is arse about?

Thats something for me to figure out later.

 

The bit missing out of ya full tank is just cornering slop over into the lower tank, which is actually the one your using. Mine does this all the time.

Hope that makes sense.

 

The tank selection switch is either grounded or not grounded, making it either main or auxilary pick up. Actual position is position 1 ( behind driver, 58L tank), postion 2 (behind passenger 68L tank)  The solenoid is there to change the return line, so that when tank is selected the returned fuel goes back to the same tank.

 

I thought I sniffed a few too many fumes first few times I checked this out, but thats how it's hooked up. lol

Easiest way to check is start car on switch position 1, get out,  put ya ear over the fuel tank cover if pump noise comes from drivers side thats the tank ya drawing from on 1, which is supposed to be the Main tank, but is in fact rigged up to the Aux tank behind the driver.

 

If it makes ya feel better, the way it's hooked up isn't even in the Ford Workshop manual. Those boys always like a bit of Mystery to keep us on our toes..... hehehe

 

Hope ya had a good Chrissy mate.

 

Jack.


5f0679eb-c1e0-42e1-b938-f63b5cd59a98_zps

 

 

 


You Can't park that Holden in MY Driveway.......................This is Ford Country.

 

 

I had my Ute raised when everybody was lowering theirs so I could drive over shit.

A Country Ute need to actually be able to get over a speed hump... or it's no good for the farm.

 

 


#6 Outback Jack

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 03:02 PM

Heya Demmo , that thing still driving ya crazy?..... I been busy looking for solutions, think ya gonna love this.......
 
I was running my Ute around, did about 200km, was wondering why fuel guage wasn't going down, flicked tank switch, almost half a tank gone in tank 1, had me buggered, other tank was almost still full besides slop over.
 
So I am reading the wrong tank, this straight away told me there was a wiring problem, but I'd checked EVERYTHING in the back near the tanks.... time to head forward.
 
The tank on the passenger side IS the main tank , just the same as a standard Longreach(Tank-switch position 1) , the auxiluary tank (Tank-switch position 2) is on the drivers side.
I thought I was going crazy..... lol
 
It all came down to relay wiring for the tank selector...... on mine, from the factory......it's backwards...... lol
I know its a factory error because the wiring has been loomed with the wires made those lengths.
Takes a little fiddling after ya finish fixing it to loom it up nicely because of the differing lengths... i forgot pics...soz
 
If you check the 2 relays for the tank selector in the drivers side kick panel with the wiring diagrams below , it makes sense.
I actually had to change over 2 wires from each relay to the opposite relay.
 
The two offender are the black/white stripe wire, and the pink wire on the other relay, swap em over, tank reads and feeds from the correct tank.

 

........Oh and make sure the plug for the back of the tank switch are Red/Yellow on outside and Red on inside.

P1080079_zps622be93c.jpg

Here's some pics and wiring diagrams to make it a bit easier mate.........

 
The Outback dual tank wiring schematic.....

P1080080_zpsabca1e59.jpg

 

 

The Outback Fuel selector relay section and wiring codes.

 P1080082_zps821bd7a9.jpg

 

PLEASE NOTE...... The wiring for socket is looking at it from the top of the relay, with relay out of the socket!
And these diagrams are the CORRECT way it should be wired.

 

The Relay pin on both relays is the left one. Relay one should be pink (mine was black/white), and Relay 2 should be Black/White(mine was pink).
 
It's easy to tell relay 1 from 2..... relay one has pink and black wires running to the centre pin, on relay 2 it is black.
 
Wiring corrected on Relay 1.......
P1080083_zps099bba14.jpg

Wiring corrected on Relay 2........
P1080084_zps1b5f5375.jpg

 

 
Hope that helps mate.... Just check that when ya switch tanks with ute running that the right fuel pump is working and you'll be apples.
 
Have a Great Australia Day....
P1080086_zps74def63b.jpg

 

 
Jack.


5f0679eb-c1e0-42e1-b938-f63b5cd59a98_zps

 

 

 


You Can't park that Holden in MY Driveway.......................This is Ford Country.

 

 

I had my Ute raised when everybody was lowering theirs so I could drive over shit.

A Country Ute need to actually be able to get over a speed hump... or it's no good for the farm.

 

 


#7 demmo

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 07:09 PM

thanks for posting the pics an diagrams  have had another quick look and switch wires are opposite on my plug  so when time permits will have another look to sought it but at least it still runs  not like the pv which has decided to stop running grrrr   so its two headaches now   no wonder I got grey hair lol

anyway once again thanks for going to the trouble of posting the info

cheers demmo



#8 Outback Jack

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 07:09 AM

No Wukkin Furries =) , us tortured duel tank souls gotta stick together....... hehe.

 

Jack.


5f0679eb-c1e0-42e1-b938-f63b5cd59a98_zps

 

 

 


You Can't park that Holden in MY Driveway.......................This is Ford Country.

 

 

I had my Ute raised when everybody was lowering theirs so I could drive over shit.

A Country Ute need to actually be able to get over a speed hump... or it's no good for the farm.

 

 


#9 Outback Jack

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:40 PM

Ok Demmo, I'm Back, might wanna keep this somewhere, this and those diagrams + that wiring change I showed you should make an Outback dual tank fuel system work...... lol ...... The wiring change is crutial.

 

Here is the wiring for the front of the Outback......

P1080093_zpsef7536af.jpg

 

 

Here is a simplified version of the wiring for the fuel tank set up........

P1080092_zps199c28e2.jpg

 

 

The Brass T piece that is inserted as a common fuel delivery line wasn't doing it for me, that nice valve sitting there.. just doing nothing.... shits me....

Also I want the selector valve to hold the pressure while ute sits around to rest on one pump, not two pumps, and I like you Demmo, think there is some funky siphoning effect happening when the brass T-piece is used.

 

The connections for the fuel tanks to selector valve and onto the motor are as so........

P1080095_zps92078423.jpg

P1080096_zps35c2eeb3.jpg

 

 

Here is a couple of pictures to compare, please note return lines go on Top smaller lugs, and fuel supply lines go to the Bottom lugs.......  Aux on Drivers Side (as pictured) Main Tank on Passenger side (as pictured)........

P1080088_zpsaa5dd225.jpg

 

 

I have also used the "L" shaped adapter filters on the pumps as it lets them get deeper in the slop can, so you get all your fuel.

Check the sender assemblies, the more horizontal of the two pump holders goes in the Aux Tank (Drivers side), the more vertical one goes in the Main Tank (Passenger side).

 

Ok mate, that should make it piss easy. The valve shuts off the tank not selected on the dash switch, I am reading the correct level for each tank, when switched.

Position 1- Main tank. Position 2 (out) Aux Tank. While you have the tank cover off , put ya ear to the tank while car is running on selected tank and make sure they are switching properly........ then bolt it all back up and it's Beer 'O'Clock...... hehe..... rest tomorrow.....

 

Ford On!

 

Jack.


5f0679eb-c1e0-42e1-b938-f63b5cd59a98_zps

 

 

 


You Can't park that Holden in MY Driveway.......................This is Ford Country.

 

 

I had my Ute raised when everybody was lowering theirs so I could drive over shit.

A Country Ute need to actually be able to get over a speed hump... or it's no good for the farm.

 

 


#10 n00bus m@x1mus

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:46 PM

Holy crap... complicated much???

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#11 Outback Jack

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 09:54 PM

Yeah, it's a right royal pain in the F#$%@* arse Noobus :shootout: .... lol . Hope this saves some people some straight Jack-et moments..... Too late for me.... beer is my only savior..... CHEERS!

 

Jack.


5f0679eb-c1e0-42e1-b938-f63b5cd59a98_zps

 

 

 


You Can't park that Holden in MY Driveway.......................This is Ford Country.

 

 

I had my Ute raised when everybody was lowering theirs so I could drive over shit.

A Country Ute need to actually be able to get over a speed hump... or it's no good for the farm.

 

 


#12 n00bus m@x1mus

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 10:29 PM

Bumped!

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#13 demmo

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 10:46 PM

think I got it sorted  so filled the tanks for a cruise  this long week end , so off we go yea decided to take short cut through the forest which links to Albany h/way which saves about 8 ks . yep great    the road has some corrugation but not bad    round a bend I go and   the motor dies  grrr        f ***rk motor turns over  an smart lock light flashes at me       so  with 2 carlton mids off we go in search of a tow truck  after 4 hours he turns up  smiling  grr   home we go  it appears the bcm has shi-t   itself  so see me other post if anyone can help thanks 

hope everyone else has better luck and a great weekend  cheers  demo



#14 demmo

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 06:03 PM

yea finally have it running well it hits 6 most of the time after replacing bcm ecu map sensors  fuel pumps [twice] and a few other bits it runs  with the idle speed control disconnected lol   still not sure where the fault lies     but my young blokes offer looks better everyday  park the f  n thing in the paddock next to the pv an torch em       might save some of my hair  lol 

 

anyway thanks for posting the diagrams up jack     will catch up with ya one day when I am heading south

cheers demmo



#15 crazy2287

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 01:34 PM

No good dude. Sometimes ya gotta park em up and wait for your enthusiasm to come back..... Just don't set them on fire please =P

Good luck sorting it out.


"Your X has a red book value of 50 cents - but you still love her and can't bear the thought of the 1000+ hours of restoration... being taken by some thoughtless knob who carelessly shits on your world... The value is to the owner." - XFEvil

#16 demmo

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 04:50 PM

yer mate cooled down now  after a few beers an a good sleep.  

 

took it for a short drive this morning. gram pa  style it still hesitates/dies for a second before it picks up revs when you apply acceleration    so still thinking fuel   

 

  had another play and swapped the fuel lines around on the 2way valve same way as jacks diagram  [mine were reversed]   start the motor  let idle  fuel pressure is 200kpa switch to  tank 2  205kpa   turn engine off and fuel pressure drops to zero  both tanks  the upside   with this swap the gauge reads correct fuel levels on each tank lol .        so swap the hoses back to the original way, run motor recheck pressures  on each tank after an hour  approx. an the pressure reading is about 190 kpa  on tank one   but tank 2 reads around 50 kpa,and I cannot find any leaks or seepages at any joins in the fuel lines.. ssoooo   would this mean that the fuel pressure cut off on the fuel rail is stuffed not holding pressure  and when motor is turned off after running on tank one that the fuel solenoid  acts as the regulator  on 1 tank only   so   would it also mean that the solonide valve is staying open allowing fuel to return to the tank when switched to tank 2  making it a mechanical or electrical problem or both     so guys any suggestions  or thoughts    as I don't want it to beat me  and I don't really want to trade up to a newer model either 

thanks demmo



#17 crazy2287

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 07:41 PM

Errrmm. When the fuel pump is off the rail wont hold pressure...

Make sure you have your line running as it did from factory, Where it travels from the hardline to the front of the engine, then loops over the bottom of the intake runners and runs parallel to the injection rail, going back to where it is screwed onto the rail.

This setup reduces the amount of time it takes to prime up. I dont know why, but from screwing around with my EFi i found when i re-routed the fuel line straight to the rail instead of looping over first, it would take ages for the rail to prime up.

Have you checked the 3 wire water temp sensor yet?


"Your X has a red book value of 50 cents - but you still love her and can't bear the thought of the 1000+ hours of restoration... being taken by some thoughtless knob who carelessly shits on your world... The value is to the owner." - XFEvil

#18 demmo

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 09:28 PM

now you have thrown a spanner in the works the lines are the same as when I purchased it   not sure what you mean loops over ect    but the lines run same on my ute as the p/van    will have to try find some specs on it as the pics in the manual aren't clear enough to track.        what/ how do you check 3 wire temp sensor ??? if this is the sensor under top radiator hose  I have disconnected the plug to check that both thermo fans work which the do.            i disconnected the line again to put the pressure gauge back in and a small amount of fuel squirted out which seems to be pressurized  so  i run the motor late this arvo for a few minutes on tank 1  then switched off an pressure gauge showed as 200kpa and was still same when I left shed 20 minutes latter    so will recheck in the morning to see what it reads     if it is still pressurised  and you say it shouldn't be then I am back to square 1

 

ark this is becoming a large pain in the  a rse   :        I now regret selling my old trusty 84 xf :-[

 thanks  cheers demmo



#19 crazy2287

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 09:02 PM

well you have a pretty unique system so i could be wrong. But don't know of any EFI petrol's that have check/one way valves in the fuel lines that would allow pressure to be maintained. not that holding pressure will cause a problem, But whatever is causing it to hold pressure could be restricting flow!

No, usually the temp sensor is mounted near the point the heater house comes out of the head. On the LH side, front. Will have a 3 wire plug going to it. Or is it 2 wire.... Memory is a bit rusty, Anyway you can test it with a thermometer, a multimeter and some water in a pot.


"Your X has a red book value of 50 cents - but you still love her and can't bear the thought of the 1000+ hours of restoration... being taken by some thoughtless knob who carelessly shits on your world... The value is to the owner." - XFEvil

#20 demmo

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 10:07 PM

  yea   finally  have a running smooth responsive  and banging on all 6 all the time [ touch wood it stays this way ]  went back over all the lines an pumps    replaced the new after market 1 I had fitted to tank 2 with the original tank 1 pump  rechecked an retightened clamps  found one was stripped on return line  tank 2     I must have over tightened it.      emptied out both tanks then added some cleaner fungicide additive and refilled with premium unleaded on a friends advice    rechecked pressure after running ,  both lines  reading slightly above 200 kpa .  also I re checked ecu connections an sprayed  the connection with hi voltage cleaner that just happened to fall out of the sons mates work van oops   :wink_2:    then went for a short drive  up  through the hills.      so it looks that it was one faulty fuel pump , maybe dirty injectors with contaminated fuel  an dirty electrical connections on ecu  so hope there is no more gremlins  lurking     once again thanks to all who posted suggestions ect   and hope this may be of help to others 

cheers demmo

 

 






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