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How to spot the difference between c3/c4/c5/c6/c9 and c10 !


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#1 tucker

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 08:18 PM

hi guys im writing a little guide after changing gearbox's in the 351 and realizing c4s arnt the same as c10's in more ways than 1 internally and externally... also im gonna put the info on Wikipedia when its done :), maybe add in FMX's and BW35-40 etc..
* Also another thing im NOT going to put things on here such as internals or different color dipsticks ect as i dont want to mislead people because they might have a rebuilt or repainted gearbox :)




c3: * c3 autos are the 3 speeds that were used in the escorts, and 4cyl cortinas
* It has an Aluminum case And a separate bell housing
* (need to find a pic, anyone got one?! ?!)


Gear Ratios:
2.47:1 1st gear
1.47:1 2nd gear
1.00:1 3rd gear
2.1:1 reverse


* It was In Cars Between 1974 and 1987



c4:

Posted Image

* Above is a picture of a c4. Or "The Case Fill C4"
* #1 notice where the dipstick hole is its on the BODY of the transmission.
* #2 notice how after the bellhousing joins to the main body there is a steep drop.
* c4's use the 10.5" 157 Tooth Flexplate.
* Bell housing is retained by 7 x 9/16” headed bolts that also retain the pump assembly.

* c4s were orignally 6 cylinder gearbox's


c10:

Posted Image

* Above is a c10. Or 'The Pan Fill C4'
* #1notice that there isnt a hole in the body where the dipstick goes?
* #2 notice the differences between the c4 where the bellhousing meets the body?
* The dipstick BOLTS into the Pan (not Push in like the c4)
* c10's use the 11 7/16" 164 Tooth Flexplate.
* Input Shaft has 26 splines. The diameter is .839”.
* The Bell housing bolts to the case via 5 x 5/8” headed bolts.

* c10's were orignally the 302 gearbox's (the 351s had fmx's) and some 351M/400M US Trucks


c6:

Posted Image

* a c6 like in the picture above has the bellhousing CAST onto the main body (you cant unbolt it at all).
* c6's use the 11 7/16" 164 Tooth Flexplate.
* They also have 31 Spline output shafts.

* c6 is the strongest of the 'c series' transmissions. also rare as they were only made in America, they originally came out on 'FE', '335' and '385' series V8's.


c9:
* It is essentially an updated C4 with some external changes and major internal changes
* The c9 has the SAME bellhousing as c4
* the Input shaft of the c9 is the SAME as a c10, Which is 26 Splines. The diameter is .839

* Refer to C4 for identifying a c9 externally


c5:
* The C5 is an updated version of the C10 released around 1982.
* It is an upgrade that sought to rectify some problems- namely lubrication.
* There Is an E2 casting code on The case
* There is a Fine thread adjuster on front Band (need a pic of this if someone can help)
* Another way to tell from a c10 is Larger 1/4 " threaded cooler fittings



Flex Plates
* There are 2 Different Sized Flex Plates, the 10.5" and the 11-7/16"

* The 10.5" Flexplates can usually be found on Windsors (older Ones from Xr's ect) and 6 cylinder's they are a C4/c9 Flexplate. They Have 157 Teeth

* The 11-7/16" Flexplate can be found behind 302c/351C And Bigblocks. They are a for the C6/C10. They Have 164 Teeth.

* BOTH C4/C9 and C10/C6 Can Be found behind Clevelands, i recently swapped a c4 for a c10 behind my 351.
* Also not there is only 1 type of Starter Motor for both sized flexplates!



Bell housings

* You can swap C4 & C9 around.
* You can even fit a C4 &C9 to the C10.However the C10 doesn’t fit anything else.

* Note The Bell housing will dictate what Torque Converter you use. The Torque Converter heights are different between C4-9 and the C10.


Vaccum Modulator
Posted Image

* This is the vacuum modulator that controls upshift firmness and timing.
* Adjusting the modulator clockwise firms and delays the upshift, while counterclockwise speeds up and softens the upshifts.
* Make your adjustments one turn at a time, then take a spin to evaluate the upshifts.
* Do not adjust the vacuum modulator any more than four turns in either direction.
* C4s came with two types of vacuum modulators. Early versions had a screw-in type; later models have a push-in modulator with a clamp as shown.
* Weak intake-manifold vacuum caused by a hot cam or torn vacuum hose will adversely affect upshifts.



please note, c4 and c10's have DIFFERENT SANDWICH PLATES and DIFFERENT FLEX PLATES and DIFFERENT BELLHOUSINGS and DIFFERENT TORQUE CONVTERS (due to the c10 having a
different INPUT SHAFT)


please also note, they all use the SAME tail shafts, and same SHIFTERS, also same INHIBITOR switch and CROSS MEMBER and SPEEDO GEARS, (but not c6's they have 31 spline output shafts)

Edited by tucker, 08 August 2009 - 06:33 PM.


#2 tucker

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 08:20 PM

THE FMX (NOTE: NOT A 'C SERIES' TRANSMISSION)
Posted Image
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* Above are pictures of the FMX transmission
* Was used 1968-81 in many Ford products.
* The FMX came out with the 351's , any maybe some 302's ?
* In its time it was the Strongest 3 speed automatic transmission. ??
* From what many sources tell me its better to do up a C4/C10 (C Series) Transmission? ?? fmx's are outdated and to heavy??
* It has a cast iron case and an aluminum bell housing and extension housing.
* Rear cooler line is the cooler return line.

Gear Ratios:
2.40:1 1st gear
1.47:1 2nd gear
1.00:1 3rd gear
2.20:1 reverse


* 1968 was a cross-over year where the Fordomatic was used in some vehicles for part of the year before changing over to the FMX.
* It is similar in appearance to the Fordomatic that was used since 1951 and the Borg-Warner BW8 and BW12. But almost none of the parts are interchangeable.

Edited by tucker, 08 August 2009 - 06:29 PM.


#3 Gregaust

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 08:53 PM

C4
The first model of the series released in the early 1960’s. Originally designed as a 6 cylinder and small V8 (Windsor) transmission. The Cleveland’s got either an FMX or C6 and the Big Blocks got the C6.

External Reference
Bell housing is retained by 7 x 9/16” headed bolts that also retain the pump assembly.
Dip Stick Tube pushes into case.
Case Breather Pipe is U shaped and located on left rear side above Low/Reverse servo cover.
Input Shaft has 24 splines. .788” diameter

Internals
Some parts like the pump and parts from the input shell back will interchange with later model units. Most of the internals where later upgraded (bigger or stronger) for increased hp engines.

C9
The 2nd of the series released in the early 1970’s. It is essentially an updated C4 with some external changes and major internal changes

External Reference
Bell housing is still retained by 7 x 9/16” headed bolts that retain the pump assembly. Bolts are 1-3/4” long
Dip Stick Tube still pushes into case.
Case Breather is mushroom shaped and is now located on top of the extension housing.
Input Shaft now has an increased diameter and 26 splines. .839” diam


Internals
Modified Pump and Stator Assembly
Modified Case
Bigger Input Shaft.
Stronger Forward Drum.
More frictions in both Forward and High/Reverse Clutch Drums.
Modified Forward Planetary- Bearings and Bushes.
New style and shape of Valve Body.

C10
Found behind Clevelands from 1971 onwards and U.S based trucks and some 351M+ 400 clevelands

External Reference
Bell housing now bolts to the case via 5 x 5/8” headed bolts. All C10 Bell housings are Cleveland or the rare Big Block.(U.S. only)
Dip Stick Tube now bolts to the Pan via one large nut.
Larger flange around front of main case to allow bellhousing to bolt separate to pump
Around 1979 the stator support rings for the forward clutch were wider.
Also the one-way roller clutch wafer springs are clipped onto cage as opposed to earlier loose fitting ones .
Case Breather is mushroom shaped and still located on top of the extension housing.
Input Shaft has 26 splines. .839” diam

Internals
Modified Forward Planetary- 2 thrust washers on top of gears instead of 1.
Different Valve Body- larger valves and modified oil circuits.
Large thrust washer between Sun Shell and rear Planetary.

C10 Late (C5)
The C5 was an update to the C10 released around 1982. It is an upgrade that sought to rectify some problems- namely lubrication.


External Reference
Same as C10.
Fine thread adjuster on front Band
Larger 1/4 " threaded cooler fittings
E2 casting code on case

Internals
Wider Forward Drum Sealing Rings.
Deleted Torque Converter Drain Back check balls & spring located in Stator.
Modified Forward Planetary- new 1 piece bearing replaced old 3 piece unit.
Higher circlip groove in High/Reverse Drum.
Extra and larger diameter lubrication holes in Sun Gear.
Larger Cooler return hole in rear of case.
Extra lubrication hole around Low/Reverse Sprag.
Different Valve Body- larger valves and modified oil circuits.

Interchangeability
Torque Converters
C4 has a 24 spline turbine hub and can be identified by the 2 drain plugs located on the base.
The C9 looks exactly the same except only 1 drain plug and a 26 spline turbine hub. Heights and diameters are the same.
The C10 looks like the C9 except it is taller (5 cm) and the PCD of the 4 retaining studs is increased from cm to cm.

Bell housings
You can swap C4 & C9 around. You can even fit a C4 &C9 to the C10. However the C10 doesn’t fit anything else.
Note The Bell housing will dictate what Torque Converter you use. The Torque Converter heights are different between C4-9 and the C10.

Tail Shaft Yokes
All the same.

Internals
With the C4, frictions, bands, servo/pistons, with some rework the Forward Planetary set and the Output Shaft.
C9 to C10- just about everything will interchange

#4 headsense

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 09:17 PM

Automatic Transmissions Simplified 3rd addition - Basic Principles by Cedric Tate

Ford 2 Speed - torque convertor, one multidisc clutch, two bands , compound planetary gear set.

Ford C3 (Bordeaux) - torque convertor, two multi disc clutches , two bands , roller type one way clutch , two simple planetary gear sets with common sun gear.

Ford C4 - torque convertor, two multi disc clutches , two bands , roller type one way clutch , two planetary gear sets.

Ford C6- torque convertor, three multi disc clutches , one band , roller type one way clutch, two planetary gearsets

Warner 3 spd or FMX - torque convertor, two bands, two multi disc clutches compound planetary gear set. Early units had no one way clutch , late units both sprag and roller type one way clutch. Number of hydraulic circuit styles as well.


Few extra details for ya

#5 compact351

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 09:31 PM

if the gearbox is in the car the colour of the dipstick will identifi it blue fmx yellow c10 green could be c4

#6 headsense

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 09:35 PM

Dont no about coloured dipsticks anyomore unless its orginal fitment , on the basis of the above supplied info by Gregaust i have a collection of C10's with yellow and green dipsticks.

#7 Gregaust

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 09:42 PM

Never heard that about the dipsticks ..

#8 Braddyxe51

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 10:00 PM

Gregaust. I was running my c9 behind a clevo with 2500 stall now have it behind a 6 with dominator 9" 3500stall convetor. Would the convertor that was behind the clevo fit onto the 6.
Was told today by a guy that I bought a convertor off that the stalls will be different in a 6 and v8 using the same convertor, is this right?

Ya make this thread a sticky
There was a thread long time back with lots of pix of inside bellhousing showing bolts and pump stuff.
http://au.youtube.com/user/braddyxe51
http://s305.photobuc...238/Braddyxe51/

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#9 tucker

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 08:47 AM

yeah braddyxe51 the stall will be different it will be higher on your clevo , id say 500 rpm higher..

today im gonna take some pics of my c10's and c4 and my BW35 so should have some decent pics with the oil breathers ect

Gregaust. I was running my c9 behind a clevo with 2500 stall now have it behind a 6 with dominator 9" 3500stall convetor. Would the convertor that was behind the clevo fit onto the 6.
Was told today by a guy that I bought a convertor off that the stalls will be different in a 6 and v8 using the same convertor, is this right?

Ya make this thread a sticky
There was a thread long time back with lots of pix of inside bellhousing showing bolts and pump stuff.


Edited by tucker, 04 August 2009 - 08:49 AM.


#10 Gregaust

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 09:46 AM

As mentioned stall will vary if more or less torque is thrown at it .

There are 2 bolt patterns where the converter fits the flexplate . They are 10.5" and 11-7/16" . 10.5" uses a 157 tooth flexplate , 11-7/16" uses a 164 tooth flex.
The 10.5" is typically found behind Windsors and 6 cylinders, the larger is the norm for clevos.

Depends which one you had behind the clevo. Both can fit up using the right combination of bellhousing /flexplate and converter . If you did have the smaller 10.5" converter (which would be right if was a C9) behind your clevo then yes it will fit up to the 6 cyl





Gregaust. I was running my c9 behind a clevo with 2500 stall now have it behind a 6 with dominator 9" 3500stall convetor. Would the convertor that was behind the clevo fit onto the 6.
Was told today by a guy that I bought a convertor off that the stalls will be different in a 6 and v8 using the same convertor, is this right?

.



#11 Braddyxe51

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 02:49 PM

Ok thanks. So its the amount of torq that motor puts out that makes the difference on the same convertor. I bought a allfast convertor yesturday for $50 for a 6 anyway.
Cheers Brad
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#12 Gassed250

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 03:18 PM

C6 has a different slip yolk to C4 etc and has 31 spline rear shaft

#13 tucker

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 02:36 PM

has anyone got any suggestions of what else to include?

#14 gros21

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 03:26 PM

maybee a list of what cars came with what eg what would of my 351 fd ltd came with?

we also need a list liek this dor diffs as a sticky

#15 Braddyxe51

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 05:55 PM

I think xd/xe 351 had fmx
302 had c4? but after readind could be a c10. Help?
some 250 had c9
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#16 gros21

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 07:37 PM

Oh c car was sold with c4 but then again hevsaid it was a fc ltd.

What's the easyiest way to tell if it's a fmx

#17 Braddyxe51

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:27 AM

http://images.google...AU326AU327&um=1
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http://s305.photobuc...238/Braddyxe51/

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#18 tucker

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 06:19 PM

dosnt it have which gearbox your car had originally in the VIN number badge thingo? ? or is that just xa/xb/xc ect?

im gonna put in the FMX, so if anyones got any info please share!!

#19 Gregaust

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 07:36 PM

Oh c car was sold with c4 but then again hevsaid it was a fc ltd.

What's the easyiest way to tell if it's a fmx


FMX has a cast iron main case and 14 pan bolts, modulator is on the left side at rear

#20 Braddyxe51

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 01:59 AM

Good one Tucker.

So after reading this am I right to say that c9 and c10 convertors are interchangable but not c4?
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