Cleveland Oil Pick-up Clearance **HELP**

[logan]

Anyone tell me the recommended clearance between the oil pick up and the bottom of the sump?

I've just run the bearings for the SECOND time on my new 351C. So it's back to basics to sort the bloody problems out.

I'm going to install a high volume oil pump, but any other input on oil restrictor kits etc much appreciated.

FYI, engine has custom built high volume competion sump with four gate flaps around pick up, baffles and windage tray with scraper. Running Redline 50W race oil.

[robbie]

what clearances are you running (main & big end)? what oil pressure did you have? what mods have you done to the oil system?

[hypoesp]

I dont think you can run oil restrictors with hyd cams.

[tuffxd408]

about 3/4 of an inch from pan to bottom of pickup.. oil restrictors are not recomended with hyd camshafts, you can run them but you dont use the restrictor for the left lifter galley, not really worth the hassle on a motor not turnig 6500-7000+ anyway..

[robbie]

I dont think he's even following this thread?

[tuffxd408]

oh well, i answered the original Q as no-one had given the answer.. might help someone.. :'(

[logan]

I dont think he's even following this thread?


Yes, I am.

[logan]

oh well, i answered the original Q as no-one had given the answer.. might help someone.. :'(


Cheers man.

[robbie]

oh well, i answered the original Q as no-one had given the answer.. might help someone.. :'(


Cheers man.


so what about the other questions that were asked? we may be able to help you find the problem, but you need to give us as much info as possible?

[logan]

so what about the other questions that were asked? we may be able to help you find the problem, but you need to give us as much info as possible?


The engine is an an XE, I do club-level track racing in it (when it actually runs, that is!). Engine has just been a disaster (oiling issues) since rebuild. I don't build it, so I can;t give you exact details of tolerances and clearances and whatnot, but the guys who do the building totally now Clevelands inside out, have been building successful race C's for decades.

Standard 351C with 30-thou over. Flat top pistons, 2V heads (rebuilt but virginal in the porting area). Stainless (or non-standard) valves, heavy duty competition valce springs, Quickfuel flowed Holley 600VS on an Edelbrock intake with spacer, standard oil pump, Ford Motorsport cam (pretty aggressive profile, can get the numbers if needed for discussion purposes), custom built Nascar-styled high volume sump (four-gate baffled pick up, tray/scraper, etc etc). Before we tore the engine down for rebuild, it ran 75lbs cold oil pressure/50 hot. (I.e. that was how it was when I bought the car).

Now it runs (or was running) only about 50lbs cold, and what I noticed on the track when running everything in was that pressure really sank as temperature rose - to the point it suddenly plummeted to 15lbs or less (when I shut down). That was with Pennzoil.

We replaced all the bearings (mains and big-ends - using H-code shells, have to get them in from Aussie, the journals were all fine as I'd shut down soon enough and hadn't been hammering the revs at all) and changed to Redline Racing 50W oil. Pressure was better with that, but after 500km of road miles (no track and very limited high-rev durations) the engine felt flat and pressure began to sag again.

Also bizarely had a horrendous vibrations from 2,000rpm onwards.

I only rev to 6000rpm, races last ten-twenty minutes, all I'm wanting to achieve is a RELIABLE race engine that's gonna be (relatively) low maintenance and will last.

Car is road registered, fully street legal. Twin plate GT clutch, Toploader, plenty of suspension mods.

My engine builder has identified the problem as possibly the oil pick up tube being slightly too small, and also the pick up mesh grill being a bit of a problem? (i.e too restrictive). What I want to know is - why have the mesh anyway? I presume it's to stop BIG bits of metal going up through the pump in the event of a 'Houston we have a problem' kinda engine situation - but that seems a bit immaterial to me because the engine would be rooted already, if metal pieces that big were flying around?

All input appreciated. Sounds like a stuck record, but big-$$$ solutions just aren't possible at the mo' as I run this thing on a shoe string - wife, two little kids, mortgages, business, all have to come first!

[logan]

Oh yeah - also: hydraulic cam, anti pump lifters, standard rocker gear (apart from the valce springs). I got told once you can't run roller rockers with a hydraulic cam, I just read somewhere you can? What's up with that? Or is the deal that if you're going to set up the top end with rollers, you should be going solid at the cam end of the business as well?

Here's another interesting oil-restricting tip I got regarding the pushrods: heat up the bottom end of the push rod, then solder the oil hole closed with a big-arse industrial soldering iron. Then, with a tiny drill bit (think it was 1/32nd?), re-drill the oil inlet through the soldered "plug").

[tuffxd408]

to me it sounds like you need a gated sump and a modified pickup... also with that pushrod idea that is a well known mod so much in fact that you can buy restricted pushrods for the job, i dont like the idea of the solder it could come loose... and remeber the restricted pushrods are for hyd cam only for obvious reasons...

the oiling issues with clevelands are in my opinion over exaggerated i have a 670hp clevo spinning over 8500rpms and have never torn up bearings.. it's a solid roller cam with oil restrictor kit, bushed lifter bores (only because my lifter bores where a little worn) with the roller lifter it is good to have the clearances a bit tighter..

another thing to keep an eye on when installing your front cam bearing is that it is not pushed back to far, it only has to go .003 from the block face otherwise it will restrict oil causing all sorts of problems, the oiling problems in clevelands are mainly from people not putting them together properly, and checking little things like the oil drainback holes for alignment etc, i have been building race clevo's for years and have never had a oiling issue or bearing failure related to bad oiling...

[logan]

to me it sounds like you need a gated sump and a modified pickup...

the oiling issues with clevelands are in my opinion over exaggerated i have a 670hp clevo spinning over 8500rpms and have never torn up bearings.. it's a solid roller cam with oil restrictor kit, bushed lifter bores (only because my lifter bores where a little worn) with the roller lifter it is good to have the clearances a bit tighter..

another thing to keep an eye on when installing your front cam bearing is that it is not pushed back to far, it only has to go .003 from the block face otherwise it will restrict oil causing all sorts of problems, the oiling problems in clevelands are mainly from people not putting them together properly, and checking little things like the oil drainback holes for alignment etc, i have been building race clevo's for years and have never had a oiling issue or bearing failure related to bad oiling...


I've got the gated sump with modified pick up - which is one of the things which is annoying me most: the engine ran pretty well when I bought the car just on standard sump (and apparently built by non-Cleveland guys, they were Chev specialists). I'll check out that cam bearing set up with my guys. Cheers bud.

[grey_esp]

You said it vibrates badly, have you considered the vibrations could be killing the bearings and resulting in low oil pressure?

Maybe the cranks bent, the balancer might be buggerd or something might be out with the clutch/gearbox and it may be putting extra loads on the crank and wearing bearings. Which ones are damged? given you lost oil pressure they will all be burned but were the any that were excessively worn?

I think a high volume oil pump will probably make things worse, unless you put some drain lines in, to get the oil from the rocker covers back to the sump ASAP.

Is there any chance your custom made sump hasnt been made all that well? Is there any way the gates could be flapping up and covering the intake for the oil pump?

Id say give it to another engine builder my self, a fresh set of eyes is always a good thing.

[logan]

You said it vibrates badly, have you considered the vibrations could be killing the bearings and resulting in low oil pressure?

Maybe the cranks bent, the balancer might be buggerd or something might be out with the clutch/gearbox and it may be putting extra loads on the crank and wearing bearings. Which ones are damged? given you lost oil pressure they will all be burned but were the any that were excessively worn?

I think a high volume oil pump will probably make things worse, unless you put some drain lines in, to get the oil from the rocker covers back to the sump ASAP.

Is there any chance your custom made sump hasnt been made all that well? Is there any way the gates could be flapping up and covering the intake for the oil pump?



Not sure which journals/bearings have copped it worse. Yes I am concerned the vibration is linked with the overall piss poor outcome of the "new" engine. And yes, definitely questionable on the build quality of the new sump: I found an oil leak on one of the welds where the new sheetmetal has been fabricated. Not a good sign. But I don't think it's actually possible for the gates to obstruct the pick-up? Need to have a look inside. Unfortunately it's all 50km away, noty easy for me to just whip out and take a look-see at.

Agree (in my limited knowledge) on the HV oil pump - it could (will??) make matters worse.